Why do people want Linux to behave like other systems?

[eugen-b]

@Aragorn

if the above is not an opt-in choice and will become the default way that Manjaro is going to be installed and maintained from here on, then I'm afraid my so far very sweet stint with Manjaro is doomed to end prematurely, and then I'm going to have to start looking for another distribution.

Manjaro will still need the test users (not test rabits), so read the second paragraph

@philm

However this will still need the current rolling way as base to provide the parts for the upcoming new approach. Windows and Mac OS User will have then what they want and might switch to our platform in the end.

@philm, a differentiation in name for the two Manjaro distros might make sense if the idea becomes reality. Kind of Manjaro "On The Rocks" or Manjaro "On Ice" , Manjaro Convinience (Food) , Manjaro Frozen ("Let it go, let it go-oh!" ). Or o boring name like Manjaro Consumer edition (because it's not for Enterprise). You can start a contest topic for the best name - Manjaro Bladebook being the prize for the winner.

[linesma]

@eugen-b

("Let it go, let it go-oh!"

Stop that you evil man. My neighbor's 8 year-old daughter listens to that dang song ALL DAY LONG at high volume.

@eugen-b

Manjaro "On The Rocks"

Shaken or stirred?

[Coffeetron]

@Aragorn

@philm

We will bring another way on how to use Linux not the classic Linux way by removing the package management as you currently know. Bases system and desktop environment will be automatically updated and apps management will be snaps or/and flatpaks.

Phil, I love Manjaro, but if the above is not an opt-in choice and will become the default way that Manjaro is going to be installed and maintained from here on, then I'm afraid my so far very sweet stint with Manjaro is doomed to end prematurely, and then I'm going to have to start looking for another distribution.

I love Manjaro because of what it is now, but ─ no disrespect intended ─ if I wanted Ubuntu, then I would have installed Ubuntu, not Manjaro.

Please do not force all of us to use Snap or FlatPak.

I guess the future is exactly this. Make it more user friendly, pack lots of features for the average user.
Opt in - opt out does not make sense for an audience that cannot distinguish snap, flatpak or repo.
The remaining experienced users who may not like the implementations to begin with will be used as test users to ensure everything goes smoothly.
Nothing wrong with this, just pointing out the target market for Manjaro.

That's why I went to Arch since I prefer the KISS philosophy.

[Aragorn]

@eugen-b

Manjaro will still need the test users (not test rabits), so read the second paragraph

Well, you can call me dense if you like, but that second paragraph neither confirms nor denies that the current way of installing applications would be going the way of the dodo. What @philm wrote in that second paragraph talks of the base system and the desktop environment only.

Also, your own wording as quoted above suggests that those who prefer the current maintenance model would have to switch from the Stable branch to the Testing branch, which I also don't find particularly reassuring. So now we already have two unclear statements to muddle the waters instead of one.

Manjaro as it currently exists is an excellent distribution that offers something for everyone's tastes. However, if the course of the entire distribution is going to shift away from what Manjaro is currently offering, then I'm afraid I ─ and many others with me ─ will be looking for another distribution that offers what Manjaro is currently offering but is planning to do away with in order to become a rolling-release version of Ubuntu. (This is not a threat, by the way. It is however something to seriously consider.)

There's a reason why we chose Manjaro in the first place. Please don't take away that reason. Because if you do, then yes, you'll be winning a lot of former Windows users, but at the same time, you'll be driving away your more seasoned GNU/Linux users.

When @philm made the announcement of the Manjaro GmbH, many users already left in anger without asking questions, while others ─ myself included ─ stood up for @philm and defended his decision, exactly because promises were made that the interests of the GmbH would not influence the development of the distribution.

If those promises have now suddenly become an illusion, then please let us, the community, know now.

[Sojiro84]

Yup, I knew about Linux but only tried it for the first time around 2013 I think.

All the flavors I tried was Ubuntu but since I also play games, it just want a option until last year.

Manjaro was the distro I needed. Good solid base package, rolling release and access to the AUR. That + all the game stuff happening made it possible for me to finally switch.

And also Windows 10 being a terrible OS also helped make the switch permanent.

[philm]

The current release model will still exist as we need it for the Manjaro Solid distribution. So depending on the chosen ISO you either have an ALPM based Manjaro distribution with all the options you know since 2012 or you use the new Manjaro Solid ISOs to go more Android-like in regard of package management.

[Zer0Cool]

100% agree, but to understand the why...

• People like yourself who "get it" are the vast minority, I would say someplace in the 0-5% of all computer users (including grandma, millennial Jack, Bob the accountant, men with beards or people with beards to be inclusive, etc.). The majority are people who think a computer is a computer and all computer are inherently the same. As such they should and "do" all act the same, good and bad.
• People generally hate change, even if it for the better. You see it all the time...people in bad jobs that will complain but not look for a new job, people in bad relationships, even people using Windows!
• When you don't know any better you cant be any better.
• More narrow, those coming to Linux are not always doing it for the "right" reasons. Very few actually know the differences and how could they? If they are not already using Linux then they cant really have a great understanding of it.

So people (using the generalization 'people' for the majority, aka not us) often come to Linux not for some moral, social or pragmatic reason but because their nephew cant stop saying "BTW I use Arch" at holiday get together's or because the IT guy at their work with the 9 foot beard hates MS more than anything.

In any case, a big part of the reason people want new stuff to be similar to old stuff is to bridge the gap. Its a big leap to go from known to unknown. Most people are "scared" enough of their computer with the understanding (no matter how limited) that they already have, let alone changing things to the point they know nothing.

Some learn about alternatives by asking these sort of things ("O, I actually have options for every little thing I want to change?!?!?") as they just go on the assumption after 20 years of MS that they have to use it a certain way. Others are just that type of person...they dont want to learn they expect someone else to do it for them...this type wont be around long so dont worry about them lol.

[Aragorn]

Thank you for clarifying, Phil. Things do sound much better when the information is complete.

[eugen-b]

I don't know anything.

[kresimir]

Personally, if I wanted to use Snaps and Flatpaks, I'd go back to Ubuntu. But I'm not telling anyone what to do, support for Snaps and Flatpaks is great as long as it is not mandatory and the same software can be found in the repos.

[c00ter]

@philm

Bases system and desktop environment will be automatically updated and apps management will be snaps or/and flatpaks.

Atomic? Immutable? If so, I do believe it can work. Fedora manages to do so, though Silverblue is still in its infancy?

[c00ter]

@eugen-b

I bet BSD forums complain about former Linux users who want their BSD be like Linux.

Possibly. Project Trident announced they are re-basing from BSD to Linux. Not joking.

[linux-aarhus]

@c00ter

Atomic? Immutable? If so, I do believe it can work. Fedora manages to do so, though Silverblue is still in its infancy?

The latest macOS - Catalina brings this to Apple products - I do think there is work to be done

[jrichard326]

ALPM all the way for me.

[cbDejaVu]

@Zer0Cool

Others are just that type of person...they dont want to learn they expect someone else to do it for them...this type wont be around long so dont worry about them lol.

Everything you stated here was 100% right on until you got to this sentence. Unfortunately this type is always going to be around and makes up the majority of the population on the planet.

[es20490446e]

@VoDo

People do not need/want to use over complicated settings.

Exactly, that's the problem. Not having some geek friend, and having to choose all by themselves.

I would say that the perfect model would be having one single default choice for everything, and making the user to choose outside that only in the very moment they decided to do so.

@c00ter

Every so often I revisit Windows, just to remind myself how lucky I am because... I run Arch.

The last time I visited Windows was eleven years ago. Actually I decided to stop downloading software illegally, and start buying what I needed.

I purchased a hundred bucks Medion computer with Vista, and with it an anti-virus and Microsoft Office.

Then I became very convinced that model was nuts. Basically I spent more time navigating screens than actually doing something of use, and the cost were high just for getting a computer that had few programs and was working way worse than my previous one.

@Zer0Cool

People generally hate change, even if it for the better.

People hate change if they don't see a reason for it.

[VoDo]

Linux apps are close. I am trying to find video editing programs. I have tried almost all, all of them the rendering takes long time on i7 one minute of video takes double the time, when render them on iPhone! And mostly it is not smooth when playing it. Photo programs miss button like enhance when it fix RAW by just one button little bit of AI would help. How I said I do not need it because I use iOS for this but would be good to have it on Linux too.

[eugen-b]

No problem, I will remotely login to your machine and do it for you when I find time.

[c00ter]

@es20490446e

The last time I visited Windows was eleven years ago.

My 'visits' usually come with a new machine. They're brief--about as long as it takes to boot into an Arch install ISO. Or I have to briefly use one of my wife's machines. Trust me, I don't like to visit Windows--it feels all icky and just wrong, wrong, wrong.

@es20490446e

Actually I decided to stop downloading software illegally, and start buying what I needed.

Funny that! I decided to stop buying Windows software, and start downloading Linux stuff, instead.

[kresimir]

@es20490446e

People hate change if they don't see a reason for it.

Exactly. People generally love change when it is obviously a change for the better. Change is always tedious, because you have to get used to new things, but when the outcome is clearly better, it's a small sacrifice to pay. However, when the outcome is not clear, then there is resistance to change and the status quo suddenly doesn't look so bad.